The PC gaming scene is slowly becoming a joke, and this is coming from a avid pc gamer. Nvidia and ATi release 10 different tiers of cards completely ripping off all of us because only 2 out of the 10 cards can actually play games well and last at least a year before they force another upgrade down our throats. I'm not buying it anymore. And Ubisoft releasing games that don't have any support for Shader 2.0 cards (Rainbow Six Vegas and Double Agent) when many many people are still using these cards because they're really not that old or slow. And THEN the games come out buggy as hell because they were designed for consoles and weren't properly optimized for PCs. Anyone else notice Rainbow Six Vegas PC has a PATCH out before the gamespot.com review is even up for the game? Hahaha. PC gaming scene is a joke, and the jokes on all of us. The question is whether us gamers are gonna take it anymore. I'm not.
I'd also like to point out websites like Tomshardware and Anandtech fully know that the only reason Oblivion runs like a total turd on every videocard configuration available is because it was poorly ported over to PC. It has literally NOTHING to do with the game being "a true test for videocards" or "amazingly NASA advanced graphics LOL". But instead of being real about the whole thing, toms and anand try their hardest to not upset the bigwigs and bring attention to this fact. I suppose so they can keep getting their free test hardware and other support for their site. It's all good. Any monkey can clearly look at the game and see the truth. Microsoft doesn't care about gamers. About the only thing they do care about is "beating sony and nintendo" (which they wont, and will never ever do). This is exactly why Oblivion was an extremely rushed title full of bugs, glitches and overall turd performance. I'm finished ranting. Have a Nice Day.
What on earth is the reviewer doing by testing different cards BUT ON a very very high end CPU? I really cannot imagine ANYONE with such a CPU using a low end card.
The tests are not helpful for the typical user. It would have been much better to do the tests with a typical cpu (e.g. P4 or D at 3.0Ghz) with all these cards. That way the typical user gets an idea how the gamne will perform on their EXISTING system or with a GPU upgrade.
Alternatively, take a typical GPU, say X800 or X1650 or X1950 and test with different CPUs, e.g. P4 3.0 and CD 2.0, and C2D 3.0 to get an idea how the game will perform on a typical PC or with a CPU upgrade.
Thanks for the comment. For this review, our focus was on how Double Agent performs across different graphics cards. A faster CPU gives us more flexibility when testing, because we wouldn't be able to see the real difference in how high end graphics cards can handle the game. For lower end CPUs, a slower CPU won't have as much of an impact because the game will already be GPU limited rather than CPU limited. We may see slightly lower results, but really the only thing a slower CPU would do is obscure the difference between graphics cards. This is how we have approached all of our graphics hardware reviews over the past few years, and how we will continue to test graphics cards in the future. The idea is to eliminate as many other bottlenecks as possible so we can look at the capabilities of the hardware we are trying to study.
Double Agent CPU performance is definitely something we could look at in a future article, but we will be waiting for Ubisoft to fix some of the problems that make this game difficult to test.
Obviously, when making a buying descision, all aspects of a system must be taken into account. We can't review every possible system (the combiniations are way too numerous), but we can review a huge number of individual components and know where the bottleneck would be before we build a system.
can the power requirement of the GPU cards be checked along the tests. Just wanted to know how much difference is between 7900GS and X1950 wrt power requirement...
It would have been nice to see some GeForce6 series graphics cards tested, their still in a considerable number of systems and are SM 3.0 capable.
I'm also rather disappointed only one processor was tested, I think it would be worthwhile to get a gauge of CPU dependency in the game especially as related to the individual graphics cards.
Typically we either do a look at GPU performance with one CPU, or a look at CPU performance with one GPU (usually after determining the best GPU for a game). Benching a selection of GPUs and CPUs all at the same time is simply impractical. Running four resolutions, two levels, and two/three detail settings with 10 GPUs already means doing about 200 test configurations (give or take). Now if you wanted to test those with 5 CPUs....
Anyway, maybe Josh can look at a separate CPU scaling article in the near future if there's enough interest in that. If SCDA becomes part of our standard benchmark suite, it will also be covered with CPU launches in the future. More likely is that we will use R6 Las Vegas instead (if we add something new from the Clancy game world).
why did anandtech choose this game to benchmark? It doesnt exactly stand out as a graphicly intensive game, especially since the first unreal engine 3 game is coming out in a few days (rainbow six: las vegas. i know roboblitz is the first game, but its hardly demonstrates what UE3 is capable of). I'd much rather see benchies for Rainbow six: las vegas, which will show us firsthand what kind of hardware is needed for the next year. just my 2 cents.
Actually, we are planning to review Rainbow Six Las Vegas when we can get a hold of it, so good suggestion. :-) Double Agent may not be the most graphically intensive game ever released, but it's still a fairly high-profile release and we wanted to keep our readers informed about its performance.
Neverwinter Nights 2 would be my vote. From the reviews I've read and my experience, it's even more difficult to run than Oblivion (though it's not clear why, the graphics are not that great in most instances, though the lighting effects are phenominal).
Neverwinter Nights 2 has framerate problems because of the engine. I wouldn't really use it to benchmark future games. I still feel that Oblivion is the best benchmarks for graphics at this point.
As we mentioned in the article, the 8800 cards weren't rendering the game properly. The graphical errors with Double Agent on the 8800 GTS and GTX made the game basically impossible to play. That's why we didn't include numbers for these cards. Hopefully when a patch or driver update fixes this issue we can see how the game performs on the 8800 in the future.
The GeForce 6 series cards support SM3.0 so could you please add results for some representative cards of that generation. I would suggest a 6800GT (which usually performs in between a 7600GS and 7600GT so would probably belong in the 'mid-range' category) and a 6600GT (which I guess is somewhere around the 7300GT level or slightly higher and would therefore be considered 'low-end').
I know the GF6 cards are getting on a bit now but there are a lot of people still using them as they are still capable of running most games quite well (especially the 6800s), and including them makes sense as owners of them are probably the most likely to be considering an upgrade which is what an article like this is presumably intended for.
The only thing this article is missing is different cpu's, but let me fill that void. With a p4 @ 3.2 ghz + x1900xtx i get around 10-20fps avg. Luckily my e6400 just arrive and i will finally get some decent fps now since the p4 seems like a huge bottleneck.
Forcing paying customers to BETA test games, seems to be becoming a habit among developers, and is simply wrong. Anyone remember the BC 3000 A.D. days and what happened to Derrik Smart ? Anyhow, hoping that Bethesda made Oblivion into a game that would renew my days of playing Daggerfall, I purchased the game, and even stuck up for the developers when others criticized the bugs of the game. Days turned into weeks, then weeks into months, additional content was released (pay ware I might add), all before Bethesda finally released its beta patch. It soon dawned on me, that Bethesda no longer enjoyed creating games, or cared about making their customers happy, but only cared about making money, and that I couldn't help feeling ripped off.
I do realize that game developers need to make money like anyone else, but they also need to realize that "anyone else" that works very hard for their money, when they do sell something, they need to provide a solid, working product. Could you imagine Ford, or another car manufacturer selling cars, as new, only to let the customer know AFTER they made the purchase, that some items still needed to be worked on, and that some assembly may be required ? We all know this wouldn't float for one second. After all, its not our fault the developer couldn't release a product on time, or needs money NOW to continue their product. Also, I find it rather strange, that a game recently released does not support new hardware, when games that have been out much longer do. Or did they ?
Companies such as this will find it very hard to get any of my money in the future, and I can only hope that other people will follow, and that perhaps someday we'll have game companies that actually release games as advertised once again. It's hard enough that we gamers have to live with games that are no longer as dynamic as they once were, and have to pay $50usd for game content that lasts about 5-8 hours, before you start reliving the game over, and over, until it finally ends.
quote: Could you imagine Ford, or another car manufacturer selling cars, as new, only to let the customer know AFTER they made the purchase, that some items still needed to be worked on, and that some assembly may be required ?
Have you ever gotten a recall letter in the mail? Thats basically what it says.
It is very frustrating when a game is released that seems as unfinished as this. The problem is that unlike with other types of products, it's not very easy to pin down who/what exactly is responsible for the problems. Regardless of this, the consumer is the one who ends up suffering, and that's just unacceptable. Thanks for your comments.
Printing now! Thanks for continuing to provide that button. Quite a few sites have removed it and they wind up not getting their arty's read. My notebook gets hot, so I prefer to read these on paper in a comfy chair, couch, bed, etc. :D
Somewhat OT, should I be playing the SC series in order? I played through about 25% of the first one and maybe 10 minutes of Chaos Theory. Are they good enough to play through? Should I just play Double Agent?
Yes I think playing all the SC series in order would be a good thing since every one of them was(still is) a very good game(if you like the stealth/assassin kind of game of course).
The older ones should be pretty cheap to buy IF you manage to find them.
Years after years I am pretty amaze that Ubisoft can come with a pretty good game franchise with so little time between the release of each games.
I personally only played Chaos Theory and Double Agent, but I found them both to be very enjoyable. I think the storyline of Chaos Theory might have been a little better than Double Agent, especially towards the end, but Double Agent had some more interesting gameplay scenarios. I highly recommend playing them both through though, if you can.
I guess I'll start w/ a SC game that'll run on my card then, lol. This has to be the worst evidence yet of console porting. Normally, it's the interface that sucks. But DA screams port in a hardware way!! And it makes me hate the consoles even more...
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28 Comments
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frostyrox - Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - link
The PC gaming scene is slowly becoming a joke, and this is coming from a avid pc gamer. Nvidia and ATi release 10 different tiers of cards completely ripping off all of us because only 2 out of the 10 cards can actually play games well and last at least a year before they force another upgrade down our throats. I'm not buying it anymore. And Ubisoft releasing games that don't have any support for Shader 2.0 cards (Rainbow Six Vegas and Double Agent) when many many people are still using these cards because they're really not that old or slow. And THEN the games come out buggy as hell because they were designed for consoles and weren't properly optimized for PCs. Anyone else notice Rainbow Six Vegas PC has a PATCH out before the gamespot.com review is even up for the game? Hahaha. PC gaming scene is a joke, and the jokes on all of us. The question is whether us gamers are gonna take it anymore. I'm not.frostyrox - Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - link
I'd also like to point out websites like Tomshardware and Anandtech fully know that the only reason Oblivion runs like a total turd on every videocard configuration available is because it was poorly ported over to PC. It has literally NOTHING to do with the game being "a true test for videocards" or "amazingly NASA advanced graphics LOL". But instead of being real about the whole thing, toms and anand try their hardest to not upset the bigwigs and bring attention to this fact. I suppose so they can keep getting their free test hardware and other support for their site. It's all good. Any monkey can clearly look at the game and see the truth. Microsoft doesn't care about gamers. About the only thing they do care about is "beating sony and nintendo" (which they wont, and will never ever do). This is exactly why Oblivion was an extremely rushed title full of bugs, glitches and overall turd performance. I'm finished ranting. Have a Nice Day.lemonadesoda - Sunday, December 10, 2006 - link
What on earth is the reviewer doing by testing different cards BUT ON a very very high end CPU? I really cannot imagine ANYONE with such a CPU using a low end card.The tests are not helpful for the typical user. It would have been much better to do the tests with a typical cpu (e.g. P4 or D at 3.0Ghz) with all these cards. That way the typical user gets an idea how the gamne will perform on their EXISTING system or with a GPU upgrade.
Alternatively, take a typical GPU, say X800 or X1650 or X1950 and test with different CPUs, e.g. P4 3.0 and CD 2.0, and C2D 3.0 to get an idea how the game will perform on a typical PC or with a CPU upgrade.
Josh Venning - Sunday, December 10, 2006 - link
Thanks for the comment. For this review, our focus was on how Double Agent performs across different graphics cards. A faster CPU gives us more flexibility when testing, because we wouldn't be able to see the real difference in how high end graphics cards can handle the game. For lower end CPUs, a slower CPU won't have as much of an impact because the game will already be GPU limited rather than CPU limited. We may see slightly lower results, but really the only thing a slower CPU would do is obscure the difference between graphics cards. This is how we have approached all of our graphics hardware reviews over the past few years, and how we will continue to test graphics cards in the future. The idea is to eliminate as many other bottlenecks as possible so we can look at the capabilities of the hardware we are trying to study.Double Agent CPU performance is definitely something we could look at in a future article, but we will be waiting for Ubisoft to fix some of the problems that make this game difficult to test.
Obviously, when making a buying descision, all aspects of a system must be taken into account. We can't review every possible system (the combiniations are way too numerous), but we can review a huge number of individual components and know where the bottleneck would be before we build a system.
Xcom1Cheetah - Saturday, December 9, 2006 - link
can the power requirement of the GPU cards be checked along the tests. Just wanted to know how much difference is between 7900GS and X1950 wrt power requirement...Btw very well covered article...
Rand - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
It would have been nice to see some GeForce6 series graphics cards tested, their still in a considerable number of systems and are SM 3.0 capable.I'm also rather disappointed only one processor was tested, I think it would be worthwhile to get a gauge of CPU dependency in the game especially as related to the individual graphics cards.
JarredWalton - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Typically we either do a look at GPU performance with one CPU, or a look at CPU performance with one GPU (usually after determining the best GPU for a game). Benching a selection of GPUs and CPUs all at the same time is simply impractical. Running four resolutions, two levels, and two/three detail settings with 10 GPUs already means doing about 200 test configurations (give or take). Now if you wanted to test those with 5 CPUs....Anyway, maybe Josh can look at a separate CPU scaling article in the near future if there's enough interest in that. If SCDA becomes part of our standard benchmark suite, it will also be covered with CPU launches in the future. More likely is that we will use R6 Las Vegas instead (if we add something new from the Clancy game world).
poohbear - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
why did anandtech choose this game to benchmark? It doesnt exactly stand out as a graphicly intensive game, especially since the first unreal engine 3 game is coming out in a few days (rainbow six: las vegas. i know roboblitz is the first game, but its hardly demonstrates what UE3 is capable of). I'd much rather see benchies for Rainbow six: las vegas, which will show us firsthand what kind of hardware is needed for the next year. just my 2 cents.Josh Venning - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Actually, we are planning to review Rainbow Six Las Vegas when we can get a hold of it, so good suggestion. :-) Double Agent may not be the most graphically intensive game ever released, but it's still a fairly high-profile release and we wanted to keep our readers informed about its performance.imaheadcase - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Clearly not from the screenshots, graphics don't look like anything.mpc7488 - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Neverwinter Nights 2 would be my vote. From the reviews I've read and my experience, it's even more difficult to run than Oblivion (though it's not clear why, the graphics are not that great in most instances, though the lighting effects are phenominal).Centurin - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Neverwinter Nights 2 has framerate problems because of the engine. I wouldn't really use it to benchmark future games. I still feel that Oblivion is the best benchmarks for graphics at this point.DukeN - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Where are the 8800 series benchmarks?Josh Venning - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
As we mentioned in the article, the 8800 cards weren't rendering the game properly. The graphical errors with Double Agent on the 8800 GTS and GTX made the game basically impossible to play. That's why we didn't include numbers for these cards. Hopefully when a patch or driver update fixes this issue we can see how the game performs on the 8800 in the future.Jodiuh - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
97.44 on NV's site now...Splinter Cell: Double Agent Single Player has geometry corruption.
Jodiuh - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
^^ That's under issue resolved.PrinceGaz - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
The GeForce 6 series cards support SM3.0 so could you please add results for some representative cards of that generation. I would suggest a 6800GT (which usually performs in between a 7600GS and 7600GT so would probably belong in the 'mid-range' category) and a 6600GT (which I guess is somewhere around the 7300GT level or slightly higher and would therefore be considered 'low-end').I know the GF6 cards are getting on a bit now but there are a lot of people still using them as they are still capable of running most games quite well (especially the 6800s), and including them makes sense as owners of them are probably the most likely to be considering an upgrade which is what an article like this is presumably intended for.
imaheadcase - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
From the performance I'm assuming it looks better when playing, because that looks like a console game graphics. heheshabby - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
The only thing this article is missing is different cpu's, but let me fill that void. With a p4 @ 3.2 ghz + x1900xtx i get around 10-20fps avg. Luckily my e6400 just arrive and i will finally get some decent fps now since the p4 seems like a huge bottleneck.yyrkoon - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Forcing paying customers to BETA test games, seems to be becoming a habit among developers, and is simply wrong. Anyone remember the BC 3000 A.D. days and what happened to Derrik Smart ? Anyhow, hoping that Bethesda made Oblivion into a game that would renew my days of playing Daggerfall, I purchased the game, and even stuck up for the developers when others criticized the bugs of the game. Days turned into weeks, then weeks into months, additional content was released (pay ware I might add), all before Bethesda finally released its beta patch. It soon dawned on me, that Bethesda no longer enjoyed creating games, or cared about making their customers happy, but only cared about making money, and that I couldn't help feeling ripped off.I do realize that game developers need to make money like anyone else, but they also need to realize that "anyone else" that works very hard for their money, when they do sell something, they need to provide a solid, working product. Could you imagine Ford, or another car manufacturer selling cars, as new, only to let the customer know AFTER they made the purchase, that some items still needed to be worked on, and that some assembly may be required ? We all know this wouldn't float for one second. After all, its not our fault the developer couldn't release a product on time, or needs money NOW to continue their product. Also, I find it rather strange, that a game recently released does not support new hardware, when games that have been out much longer do. Or did they ?
Companies such as this will find it very hard to get any of my money in the future, and I can only hope that other people will follow, and that perhaps someday we'll have game companies that actually release games as advertised once again. It's hard enough that we gamers have to live with games that are no longer as dynamic as they once were, and have to pay $50usd for game content that lasts about 5-8 hours, before you start reliving the game over, and over, until it finally ends.
sdedward - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Have you ever gotten a recall letter in the mail? Thats basically what it says.
shabby - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
But every car doesnt have a recall. Today it seems like every game gets patched before it even hits stores.Josh Venning - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
It is very frustrating when a game is released that seems as unfinished as this. The problem is that unlike with other types of products, it's not very easy to pin down who/what exactly is responsible for the problems. Regardless of this, the consumer is the one who ends up suffering, and that's just unacceptable. Thanks for your comments.Jodiuh - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Printing now! Thanks for continuing to provide that button. Quite a few sites have removed it and they wind up not getting their arty's read. My notebook gets hot, so I prefer to read these on paper in a comfy chair, couch, bed, etc. :DSomewhat OT, should I be playing the SC series in order? I played through about 25% of the first one and maybe 10 minutes of Chaos Theory. Are they good enough to play through? Should I just play Double Agent?
Le Québécois - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Yes I think playing all the SC series in order would be a good thing since every one of them was(still is) a very good game(if you like the stealth/assassin kind of game of course).The older ones should be pretty cheap to buy IF you manage to find them.
Years after years I am pretty amaze that Ubisoft can come with a pretty good game franchise with so little time between the release of each games.
Jodiuh - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Buddy's gonna let me borrow the first one. I'll hit it up after HL2.Josh Venning - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
I personally only played Chaos Theory and Double Agent, but I found them both to be very enjoyable. I think the storyline of Chaos Theory might have been a little better than Double Agent, especially towards the end, but Double Agent had some more interesting gameplay scenarios. I highly recommend playing them both through though, if you can.Jodiuh - Friday, December 8, 2006 - link
Just got through the article...I guess I'll start w/ a SC game that'll run on my card then, lol. This has to be the worst evidence yet of console porting. Normally, it's the interface that sucks. But DA screams port in a hardware way!! And it makes me hate the consoles even more...