Weekly Buyer's Guide: Entry Level System - July 2004

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• Agentbolt - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

  Antec pretty much IS the best PSU, their cases are quite good too. Take a long look at the Antec Tostada mentioned that are for sale at NewEgg.com, for an entry level system they're pretty much perfect.

• spartacvs - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

  Ok, I plan to change my computer soon. I still have a p3800eb! I'm not sure at 100% about what should I do but I will most probably go for a budget system. Reason is I'm low on budget and I can buy a cheap athlon cpu and change it later. Another reason I go for a budget system is because all the major changes coming up. I just don't want to wait for another 3-6 months before things settle up. Furthermore, my faith in techology has been lowered and I have decided to put money in some better investment (social and outdoor activities, travel, etc).
  
  I think the whole debate here is kinda a storm in a glass of water. But I will add my 2 cents because, after all, as a budget system buyer I'm the most concerned.
  
  I think the first thing to decide is wheter you go with onboard graphics. My opinion is that, while the integrated video are not the best option, it is still a very viable one. So my plan was to buy a board with integrated video. Later on (6 month to a year later), I can add a video board, change the cpu and increase memory at same time (I think it's better to do that at same time to avoid bottleneck).
  
  This is why I'm considering buying the MSI k7n2g-islr (for soem reasons I'm more confident in this one rather thna teh biostar wich are the only recents MB I know to have integrated graphics). BUT, my goals are the same as the guide: price and reliability. I will not overclock the system. This is why I'm on hold untill I decide what to do with the motherboard.
  While a excellent board, I feel the asus A7N8X-X model is about to be "somewhat outdated". Taugh choice.
  
  As for the case, I'm a bit on the cold side to buy a case and replace the power supply. I really consider the antec ones (slk1600, 3700, 2600 or even the new 2650). Again, taugh choice. Antec isn't a bad choice for sure but I'm like everybody: I want to make sure I have the best :)

• justbrowzing - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

  Another vote for an sff guide here.
  
  Also, PLEASE include LCDs as alternative monitors in all guides. You just can't ignore the quality advances and the price drops, let alone the market penetration, any more. And real comparative info's hit-or-miss.
  
  This would be a real service to many readers.

• Evan Lieb - Saturday, July 10, 2004 - link

  thebluesgnr,
  
  - Just because XBITLabs didn’t find any problems (whatever that means?) doesn’t mean 2D IQ is perfect. Did they compare it to, say, a Matrox workstation video card (as just one example of a far superior card for textual quality)? No, I believe they did not.
  
  - I don’t remember there being any difference between KT600 and nForce2 with SATA drives, and any real significant difference certainly would have been well documented by users, and that obviously has not been the case. If you want to test out your theory, run a controlled test (same HDD/cables, memory, CPU, video, device drivers, etc.) and run some HDD tests of your own choosing and report back.
  
  - Yes, 9600SE would be a nice alternative, but they are about $15-20 more expensive than 9200 cards, and gaming just isn’t high priority enough to be recommended as an alternative. Though it’s a very good alternative and a close call for sure.
  
  Tostada,
  
  - Sorry if my tone appears hostile, but the statements you’re referring to (our testing and experience with these boards/cards) are true, and documented on this web site. We have tested these cards and these boards and we’ve done the comparisons, and lots more that hasn't been published and that can be easily backed up by a whole community of enthusiasts. What do you want me to do, list off every article that we’ve ever done about 2D and 3D IQ testing, nForce2 motherboards, etc.? It’s all right here on the web site and in the forums. Also, I’m not sure why you think you’ll get a headache from such a resolution/Hz configuration. And even if you don’t like the recommended monitor, there is obviously a reason we list an alternative, the Diamondtron.
  
  - We listed the 9200 as an alternative? Have you read through the first page of our Buyer’s Guides before and our explanation of why we have alternative picks?
  
  - We haven’t reviewed that exact model (AN35N), but we have indeed reviewed it internally. Your contention that it’s some hugely popular board is overblown. It’s popular, yes.
  
  - Yes, the Antec is indeed a good case/PSU combination. We’ll have to look at it again for future guides.
  
  - It’ll be better than your nForce2 IGP.
  
  - DVD capability is very low priority for most entry level users. Plus, their systems usually just aren’t that good enough to fully enjoy a DVD movie because of how little is spent on components. That said, the Sony combo drive is very nice. But again, you’re ignoring the fact that we indeed listed a DVD combo drive as our alternative. It’s there for a reason you know.
  
  Agentbolt,
  
  Indeed, some may not mind saving $40 and going with nForce2 IGP 2D IQ if their eyes aren’t very sensitive. Tostada may be one of those people. That’s fine. But honestly, I just don’t see many entry level users trying to skimp on 2D text quality when that is literally 95%+ of what they’ll be using their system for. THAT is something that is very important, maybe even important enough to recommend a higher end monitor.

• Agentbolt - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

  Dig what you're saying, Tostada. Apex DVD players are the worst of the worst, I know. I was just making an example.
  
  For what it's worth, although I've never personally dealt with integrated video, the extra few FPS in older games the 9200SE could actually run and more "sharp" looking text and whatever else better 2D IQ entails might very well not be worth the extra 40 bucks being spent on the vid card. I don't know personally, since I've never compared the two, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of people would like spending the 40 bucks you save on the video card on other aspects of the system. Maybe even a DVD player :)

• Tostada - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

  Evan-
  
  Most of your responses end with you saying "We've done our own tests," yet you cite none of these tests. I'm asking an honest question, and you seem condescending and hostile. Some of the things you're saying are just silly. Do you honestly expect anybody to use 1280x1024 @ 65 Hz on that cheap monitor? It would give most people a headache. Can you see where I'm coming from? Can you see where a $40 video card on that monitor appears to be overbuying? Are you implying that all GeForce cards are crap, and that's why I can't tell the difference between the Ti 4200 and the nForce IGP hooked up to my KVM?
  
  If you're going to get a 9200 SE, why not pay the extra $10 for a 128-bit Radeon? Then you could honestly say that it's significantly faster than the nForce IGP.
  
  Now I think I see where you're coming from. You're recommending the Asus board because you gave it your Editor's Choice Silver award. I can accept that, although if you're going to be making these guides a front-page affair, it would only be reasonable for you to review hugely popular budget boards like the Shuttle AN35N.
  
  There are two Antec cases with 300W Antec power supplies at NewEgg for $49 + $15 shipping. If you care so much about the PSU, you can't turn around and tell me it's not worth $1 for an Antec.
  
  You're right, I haven't directly compared a cheap 9200SE to an nForce IGP. I should have one of the $53.50 Sapphire 128-bit R9200's showing up Tuesday, though, so I'll be sure to do a direct comparison at all resolutions on my nice 22". Maybe it'll be jaw-dropping. :)
  
  I don't suppose DVD capability is terribly important, but a Sony combo 52X CD-RW/DVD-ROM is $38.99. It seems like common sense. Besides, there's a difference between what they need and what makes them happy. For some reason, people just love to pop a DVD into the computer and check it out the first time they turn it on, even if they're not going to be watching movies on the thing. I think it's worth it for them to be able to do that. It gives them confidence in the quality and compatability of the machine. I can't imagine you would be able to find a person who would give up DVD compatability to save $10.
  
  Agentbolt-
  
  As I said before, I was simply trying to make a comparable case. I didn't realize he was talking about ditching the generic PSU and going with a semi-generic Sparkle. That said, I have not seen many PSU problems with low-end systems. Yeah, I've seen PSU's die, but it's usually actually the fan dying. The requirements on a low-end system's PSU and the requirments on your average enthusiast AT reader's PSU are vastly different. I'll retract anything I said about cheap cases for you picky guys, though, and just recommend the cheap Antec one to make everyone happy.
  
  Also, I wasn't talking about $30 for a DVD drive. It's $7.99 more than he was already spending! And I know three people who have Apex DVD players. Every one of them had the tray door fall off. Even most of the display models I've seen are falling apart.
  

• thebluesgnr - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

  - That is true. Although most PCChips boards are put together with bad PSUs, memory, etc, they do tend to give more problems in general. That doesn't mean every single board from ASUS is better than any board from PCChips. Like I mentioned, the M848LU is a very solid motherboard from PCChips (I'm not suggesting it for the guide).
  
  - The prices on newegg are just to show the ASUS board offers less while costing the same, or more. You are recommending the NF7-S as an alternative, so I assume you have no problems with the ABIT NF7 series. So why not replace the A7N8X-X with the NF7? One other advantage of it over the A7N8X-X is the rear panel, where Line In/Mic is not shared on a 5.1 setup. The MSI K7N2 Delta-L is also a better option in my opinion.
  
  - Yes. Check the article on xbitlabs, they didn't find any problems with the nForce2 IGP 2D image quality. Also, if you don't mind me asking, how would you compare the nForce2 IGP 2D quality with a GeForce off-board card?
  
  - In my experience the KT600 with a SATA hard drive feels more responsive than an nForce2 system with a PATA hard drive. If you could setup these combinations yourself I'd love to hear what you think of it.
  
  I do agree with the guide in the 256MB recommendation. And that's one more reason to get the nForce2 Ultra 400 instead of the nForce2 400 for free, this system will likely be upgraded in the future with another 256MB, if the user think it's necessary for their tastes.
  
  One last thing, why not upgrade the video card alternative to the GeForce FX 5200 or Radeon 9600SE? If the user wants "semi-serious" gaming I think the 9200 is still not going to cut it, and it will be a very good gaming system with one of these two.

• Agentbolt - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

  I think I've really got to agree with Evan here on most of his points. Biostar motherboards are certainly not BAD boards, but doing extensive research on them compared to ASUS or ABIT board indicated Biostar simply isn't as rock-solid high quality as those two mfgrs. If reliability is one of the two greatest concerns with this system, you just don't skimp on the motherboard. Biostar is good, but not as good as ABIT or ASUS. Simple as that.
  
  256MB of memory versus 512 MB really won't make that big a difference in performance. This is a computer that's meant to surf the internet, use Word, and maybe upload digital pictures onto. Everything else (games, movies, etc.) is gravy and not worth spending the extra 50 bucks on the memory.
  
  I have no comment on cheap cases because I just keep reusing the same beige one whenever I upgrade, but using the generic Codegen or PowMax PSU that comes with that case you're suggesting (Tostada) is the easiest way to kill a machine. Look at NewEgg reviews, the PSUs that come with these cases have good rails MAYBE 50% of the time, you're looking at an unstable setup at best and a toasted motherboard at worst. Even Sparkle ones are a little iffy, I might have gone with a Thermaltake (430 Watt True Power, 43$ shipped from NewEgg) instead.
  
  Who really watches DVDs on an entry level computer? Spend the 30 dollars you'd put into a computer DVD drive and buy an Apex DVD player from Wal-Mart and hook it up to your TV if it's really that important, most people who watch DVD's on their computers have big monitors and fancy sound setups for their computers, which this computer is not equipped with. I'm not saying NO ONE watches DVDs on their computer, or that it's impossible to do it, but I'm just not buying your argument that the target consumer for this computer is THAT interested in having DVDs on their computer.
  
  I can't comment on video or the hard drives, since I know nothing about either of your proposed components.
  
  

• Evan Lieb - Friday, July 9, 2004 - link

  thebluesgnr,
  
  - The vast, vast majority of users will tell you they've experienced many more problems with PC Chips boards than they have with ASUS boards (as just one example). That includes nForce2 boards as well. Based on our testing, we agree with these many users’ experiences, we end up with similar issues in other words.
  
  - What does the price of an NF7 on Newegg compared to the price of an A7N8X-X on Newegg have to do with anything? You’re singling out one vendor out of thousands to prove a point that falls flat on its face when you take a look at prices at the other 10,000 vendors available online. Not that I don't understand what you're trying to say, but the price difference between the NF7 and A7N8X-X is maybe a dollar.
  
  - There's no such thing as "perfect" 2D IQ. Maybe you meant to say acceptable 2D IQ? nForce2 IGP IQ is hardly perfect.
  
  - I'd really like to know where you're hearing that SATA drives have noticeably faster access time. And no, faster access time numerically does not equal faster access time in the real world.
  
  Tostada,
  
  1) You aren’t spending $40 just for a few extra fps in games. Gaming is one of several reasons to purchase a 9200SE over integrated video.
  
  2) What does flipping back between nForce2 IGP and GeForce video have to do with a conversation regarding nForce2 IGP and Radeon video? And may I remind you, this is a Buyer’s Guide, we aren’t running benchmarks and we don’t need to present anything to support our position when we have done so in many previous reviews. And no, it’s not asinine to bring up resolutions higher than 1024x768 into the conversation when the monitor I recommended (whether it is discontinued or not hardly matters if it’s actually available) obviously can display adequately up to 1280x1024.
  
  3) I have looked at SR. If I miscalculated the performance difference between comparable drives you are more than willing to show me exactly what you’re talking about. I’ve done my own tests, though AnandTech hasn’t published them because our storage coverage has been weak for years.
  
  4) For entry level users there isn’t a big difference between 256MB and 512MB. It’s as simple as that.
  
  5) Firstly, I didn’t say “Why build your system around anything less than Asus”, I said “Why build your system around anything less”, referring to the A7N8X-X motherboard, not the manufacturer (ASUS) exclusively. Secondly, it is not fact that you can get motherboards as good as A7N8X series. We gave our nForce2 Editor’s Choice Silver award to ASUS (the gold went to Epox, but they don’t really make a budget nForce2 board that’s available in the U.S.). Run a poll on our forums if you’d like, you’ll quickly see the A7N8X line is the most popular for good reason; it’s a great series of motherboards, and in our opinion the best (next Epox’s line of nForce2 boards, specifically they’re older generation of high end nForce2 boards). Many other web sites share this our opinion and the general consensus. And might I add that I’ve tested every nForce2 board in existence save for perhaps nForce2 boards that are only made outside the U.S. How many have you tested? Not trying to be pompous here, but I do have a great deal of experience with nForce2 boards.
  
  6) You could always keep the PSU or sell it, you don’t have to scrap it. But anyway, there’s a reason we chose the CaseEdge, we like it and think many other users will too, and we think it’s one of the best in its class. Unfortunately it doesn’t come with a PSU we like, so we recommended another one. Should I also assume you haven’t directly compared a Sparkle PSU to the Austin PSU (the one that comes with the case you suggested)? Oh, and by the way, which Antec case with an Antec PSU are you referring to? Which model?
  
  7) Sure I have, I’ve used many nForce2 IGP boards (maybe every series, I can’t remember). And by entry level standards, they aren’t acceptable (perhaps “barely acceptable” was too harsh) because they simply aren’t the best you can get. Your belief is that nForce2 IGP 2D IQ isn’t that bad. I ask you, how would you know if you haven’t compared it to 9200/SE 2D IQ?
  
  And what’s with this contention that DVD capability is suddenly so important? If you honestly believe entry level users are prioritizing DVD playing, then you just don’t know the needs of entry level users. And I’d love to add another 256MB of PC3200 memory if it weren’t so much more money ($50) for an incredibly small performance difference they’ll never care about or hardly notice.
  

• Tostada - Thursday, July 8, 2004 - link

  Evan -
  
  1) The 9200SE is close to the NF2 IGP in almost all benchmarks. Spending $40 for a couple FPS in some games is extremely hard to justify given the budget of this system.
  
  2) Please give more details of your 2D quality comparisons. I've flipped back and forth between an nForce2 IGP and various GeForce cards using my KVM switch on a $650 Trinitron, and at 1024x768 I simply can't tell them apart. Maybe some nForce2 boards have bad image quality, but I have seen nothing (nor have you presented anything) to support your position. Also, it's totally asinine for you to bring up performance at resolutions beyond 1024x768 seeing as you're using a low-end 17" CRT (a discontinued model at that) which is only capable of 1280x1024 @ 65Hz.
  
  3) Just look at StorageReview. The WD800JB is slightly slower/louder/hotter than the competition. It doesn't have FDB and some still use 40GB platters. I have heard tons of complaints all over the place of these drives starting to emit a high-pitched whine. Look to Google, Storage Review forums or the 589 comments on Newegg for examples.
  
  4) Yes, you can multitask with 256MB thanks to the Windows swapfile. I hope you're not trying to say there isn't a big difference between 256MB and 512MB in XP, though.
  
  5) "Why build your system around anything less than Asus?" Because you can get boards that are just as good for less. This is fact. Nforce boards have been out for a long time, and many cheap boards have been proven to have bullet-proof reliability. If you can't even afford more than 256MB RAM, how do you justify paying extra for zero benefit in the motherboard department?
  
  6) I was simply trying to list a comparable case. Am I to assume that for $63 you intend to buy a CaseEdge TS1, throw away the PSU, then buy a Sparkle PSU? Sparkle still isn't anything to write home about. If you're concerned about your PSU, you can get an Antec case with a 300W Antec PSU for $64 delivered from NewEgg. If you're already spending $63, it's absolutely worth an extra $1 to go with Antec.
  
  7) You cannot possibly have used a good nForce2 IGP board if you're calling the 2D quality barely acceptable.
  
  It just doesn't add up. I could understand playing it safe and going with an Asus board and the cheapest 3-year hard drive perhaps if you didn't have any experience with other products, but I would certainly hope you could give other products a fair shake before suggesting paying $550 for a system that has 256MB and can't play DVD's.
  
  I'm just trying to present the facts and my experience. I appoligize if I sound like a jerk.